"One RCB vote changed everything"? Nah.

Right now on the front page of MyDD, one can read the host of this site opining:

"One RCB [sic*] vote changed everything."

This analysis can only be described as either willfully ignorant or deliberately inflammatory -- because no single vote or event changed the outcome of this Democratic contest.

Such unitary theories are by nature reductive and misleading. As far as I can see, the only point of making such a statement is to generate false pity for the losing candidate, and to instigate phony theories that the election was somehow stolen from the candidate who once held all the advantages and all the cards.

That contest was won fair and square by Barack Obama -- with a lot of help from the inept Clinton campaign. So let me try to list just a few of the votes and other events which collectively "changed everything" for Hillary Clinton -- changed her candidacy from one of inevitability, to one that has embarrassed many who once supported both her and her husband's political careers...

1) Hillary voting to give Bush the power to wage a falsely-justified war;

2) Hillary relying on tired establishment figures such as Mark Penn, Harold Ickes, Terry McAuliffe and Howard Wolfson to steer her strategy and message;

3) Hillary deciding to neglect the Iowa caucuses, until it was too late, giving Obama a huge national burst of publicity and momentum;

More after the jump...

3) Hillary failing to prepare for the possibility that the contest would not be decided by the votes cast on Super Tuesday;

4) Hillary failing to comprehend the new nature of campaign fundraising in the internet era, until it was too late;

5) Hillary losing eleven straight votes in states after Super Tuesday;

6) Hillary failing, despite her decades in politics, to understand the importance of a robust 50-state grassroots strategy;

7) Hillary refusing to recognize that caucus voters send delegates to the Democratic National Convention, too;

8) Hillary committing gaffe after gaffe (from Tuzla to RFK) which made Obama's job much easier than it needed to be;

9) Hillary going negative on Obama early and often, causing even some of her own supporters (such as the editorial board at the New York Times, which endorsed her) to call on her to cool her rhetoric -- calls she ignored, further alienating core voters;

10) Hillary using divisive code words and faux-populist posturing in an attempt to divide the Democratic party against itself for her own gain, thus alienating superdelegates, including those on the Rules committee;

11) Hillary losing two out of three contests to an opponent she wrongly underestimated;

12) And most importantly, the millions and millions of votes cast for Barack Obama "changed everything" -- more, by any rational and unbiased measure, than were received by Clinton.

One could go on and on with such examples. Bottom line: No "one vote" changed everything. A parade of miscalculations, gaffes, divisive actions, coupled with an laurel-sitting overconfidence, combined with millions of votes to "change everything."

It stuns me, as someone who bought an early copy of Crashing the Gates, that anyone could believe that any one event could singlehandedly bring down the Clinton juggernaut. It required two-plus years of missteps by Clinton, and a brilliant campaign by Obama, to come to this ending.

It's one which leaves this lifelong Democrat perfectly satisfied with our candidate for November, and confident that the better and more popular candidate prevailed.

--- --- ---

UPDATE: Oh, and I'll add one more factor, #13: Hillary trashing "activists" (not sure if that includes people who advocate gate-crashing or not).

--- --- ---

* It's RBC -- Rules and Bylaws Committee -- not RCB.


Poll
Did the RBC vote "change everything"?

Votes: 8
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Go ahead, gimme a 1 or a 2 (1.98 / 61)

But this is a sincere and detailed diary from a longtime MyDDer, so if you give me a 0, that's just abuse.


by Hudson on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:18:47 PM EST

One thing you fail to realize.... (2.00 / 1)

In a presidential election, voters do not vote for 'Best Campaigner'.  They vote for who makes the best president.  


by KathleenM1 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:32:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One thing you fail to realize.... (2.00 / 18)

Is that why Bush beat Kerry?


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:33:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One thing you fail to realize.... (2.00 / 15)

Not really.  They vote for who they want to be president.

There's a huge difference there.  As we saw in '04, vox populi isn't necessarily vox dei; in fact, it often can be vox ignoranti.

And the candidates who convince the most people to want them to be president are, in fact, the best campaigners.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:36:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One thing you fail to realize.... (1.66 / 6)

Interesting, and meaningful introduction of Latin into the conversation.  

You must be one of them attorney types...or the product of a Catholic education...

Cheers.


Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08
by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:23:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Catholic attorneys... (2.00 / 1)

Sounds just like FIDEL CASTRO!  Now it all becomes clear.


by Dumbo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:28:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Catholic attorneys... (1.66 / 6)

Interesting.  I did not know that.  However, I do know a few Catholic Attorneys who are not Fidel Castro.


Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08
by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One thing you fail to realize.... (none / 0)

Exactly so people vote for the best campaigner, not necessarily the candidate who would make the best president. Sometimes, together both aspects of the candidate are valid, but as the GOP has proven perception can be much stronger then reality. I also believe that theory is once again being demonstrated in the nom process by the DNC actually picking Obama.


by jrsygrl on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:06:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One thing you fail to realize.... (2.00 / 4)

The people spoke and however you want to slice it Obama has won. And people voted for him because they feel he will be a  better President than Clinton.

So what were you trying to say here?


by John a Va Dem on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:36:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]


fail to realize??? (1.90 / 22)

No I think that is exactly what he is saying. Hillary proved she couldn't run a national campaign, even though she had every conceivable advantage. Obama on the other hand turned a stacked deck against him into a stunning victory, using tenacity, hard work, intellect, and savvy. All the things a good president needs.
by Is This Snark on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:42:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: fail to realize??? (2.00 / 1)

How do you do the donate to barack obama thing?


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:22:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: fail to realize??? (1.00 / 2)

<tr><td><i><div style="font-style: normal; position: relative; top: 5.6em; z-index: 3;">[ <a href="https://donate.barackobama.com/">Donate to Barack Obama</a> ]</div></i></td></tr>

Copy and paste that after your message, then set to HTML Formatted in the drop down instead of auto format.

That could look horrific to html fans but it is what I rigged up from looking at the source code of the other posts that had it.


by Is This Snark on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:35:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Re: fail to realize??? (1.00 / 2)

test...

McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:51:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Re: fail to realize??? (2.00 / 1)

test with following the directions. I am an idiot.
McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:52:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]



Re: fail to realize??? (1.00 / 2)

test with preview.

by Is This Snark on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:54:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Re: fail to realize??? (2.00 / 1)

Like this? ;-)
Sorry - thought you folks might like to share code with someone from the other side....

No way. No how. No McCain. . . . . . If you can ship a job to Bangalore India, you can ship a job to Flint Michigan.
by NJ Liberal on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:36:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Re: fail to realize??? (none / 0)

Like this? ;-)
Sorry - thought you folks might like to share code with someone from the other side....

No way. No how. No McCain. . . . . . If you can ship a job to Bangalore India, you can ship a job to Flint Michigan.
by NJ Liberal on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:37:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: fail to realize??? (none / 0)

We're on the same side, trust me


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:43:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Let's examine that..... (2.00 / 1)

...with real facts, as opposed to Obamaspin:  

If all the primary results including Florida and Michigan are counted, but not caucus votes, Clinton leads the popular vote 17,461,845 to Obama's 17,244,762. That number includes giving Obama all the "uncommitted" votes from Michigan.

If an estimate of caucus-goers is included, Obama leads Clinton 17,928,000 to 17,843,000.

If the caucuses are counted without giving Obama Michigan's "uncommitted" vote, Clinton leads 17,873,000 to 17,703,000.

Now then:  if that's your notion of a "stunning victory" for Obama, you've got a worse hyperbole problem than Trinity Church pastors.  


by KathleenM1 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's examine that..... (2.00 / 8)

Kathleen, consider where they both started.

Obama's campaign is a stunning success; Hillary's is a stunning failure.  


"It's time to pass the baton to the next generation." Ken Jacobson, WA state senator.
by tibbs on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:28:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's examine that..... (1.00 / 1)

Repetition doesn't make your case any stronger.  The popular vote totals are right there for all to see.  And when you run the electoral numbers, you see who the strongest candidate against McCain is.  And it ain't Mr Resume-lite.  


by KathleenM1 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:10:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"Popular vote" (none / 0)

doesn't exist.  

To get a reasonable approximation one would have to extrapolate the caucus margins of victory to what would have been the likely full-primary margins.

If this were done Obama would have a much higher "popular vote" and Hillary would not.


by Garret on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:16:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary failing the DC bar resume? (none / 0)

All that legislative experience before her Senate seat?  ZERO

Who's repeating the Kool-aid?  You giving her 8 years of "experience" for serving as First Lady?  Do we want to go down that route?


by Regenman on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:34:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's examine that..... (2.00 / 6)

What makes it stunning isn't the size of the victory, it's the simple fact that he won.

Going in, this was hers to lose. And lose it she did.

Obama won it by being smarter, working harder, and understanding the mood of the country far better than she could.


"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it." -- Dr. Horrible
by BobzCat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:50:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's examine that..... (2.00 / 2)

Well, I'm glad you -- unlike Hillary's campaign -- openly acknowledge that Hillary's popular vote "lead" is problematic at best.


Obama leads the popular vote too
by kellogg on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's examine that..... (2.00 / 5)

I'll make an even shorter precis of your "real facts" claimed above:

Clinton's alleged lead only materializes IF you either don't count the caucuses, or IF you give Obama NO votes in MI.

May I play too?

Obama won 80% of the popular vote IF you divide Clinton's popular vote count by 4.
Obama won 90% of the pledged delegates IF you don't count certain pledged delegates.
Obama won 100% of the states IF you don't count the primaries that Clinton won.

How's that for a stunning victory, eh?


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:35:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's examine that..... (none / 0)

You've made my point for me.
The only way you get a 'stunning victory' for Obama is to deny the actual numbers and substitute gimmicks like "divide Clinton's vote count by 4" (your words, of course.)  
by KathleenM1 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:59:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You don't get sarcasm much, do you? (2.00 / 3)

Please indulge me as to why the conditions under which Clinton gets her "lead" - giving 0 votes to Obama - aren't gimmicks?


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:12:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You don't get sarcasm much, do you? (2.00 / 1)

It really has been one of the divides on MyDD that the Clinton diehards (not you sricki:) do seem to be rather humourless.


by interestedbystander on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 05:59:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I would prefer to say that Hillary ran a (none / 0)

very good campaign, although I agree the national scope wasn't adequate. The difference is that Obama ran a much better campaign. You don't have to tear one person down to elevate another. I understand the gist of the diary is to counter Jerome's assertion that "one vote changed everything," but it is important to remember that when someone loses a contest it isn't necessarily that they did so many wrong things. It is often that their opponent just did a better job. A tied score at the last second of a basketball game isn't lost by a single missed free-throw. Both teams played really well to get to that point and, as the diarist implies, a bad call by a ref, a missed lay-up, poor coaching just before half-time - any number of things contribute. But bad calls, missed opportunities, bad advice, it happened on both sides. One team just had a better plan, better advice and had possession of the ball at the end. Nah, I don't lay it out as if Hillary ran some kind of hideous campaign. I prefer to think that Obama just out-played her, had a better plan. He should be very proud of his accomplishment, as should we all. I look forward to coming together as a party behind such a talented player. And Grammpy McSame? He sure is looking short, stumbly and fumbly now-a-days. And have you seen the man dribble? Lay-up? Jumpshot? I mean, come on...  ;-]


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:48:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: fail to realize??? (none / 0)

Yeah b/c Clinton has NO experience in successfully participating in a national campaign for president & Obama does. Oh wait...


by jrsygrl on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:07:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One thing you fail to realize.... (2.00 / 6)

No no no.  In every election, people vote 90% on gut instinct and 10% on rational thought.  That's why ridiculous things like bittergate and Hillary crying matter so much: because it's all most people ever remember.  They don't remember Hillary's stance on Israel or Obama's specific problems with the gas tax.  They remember "Hey, Obama acted like he was dusting off Hillary" or "Hillary is showing too much cleavage; it's inappropriate."  

I wish people would at least justify their instinctive choice with some policy positions.  It seems like most people here have a good take on the issues and don't pick a candidate that goes against most things they believe just because they get a "bad feeling" about one candidate.  But it happens a lot among "regular" people.

I tend to think that many/most Hillary supporters see health care as their #1 issue, and AAOS (As An Obama Supporter), I also believe she is stronger there and closer to my own views.  But it isn't my #1 issue, which I imagine is the case for most Obama supporters.


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go ahead, gimme a 1 or a 2 (2.00 / 3)

Bravo & well said.  That's about the sum of it.

It's all over but for the sour grapes at this point from the fearful and desperate who don't care what kind of Democrat gets elected to the White House, as long as we elect one--and believes that Obama is somehow less electable than "sky-high negatives" Clinton.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:00:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go ahead, gimme a 1 or a 2 (2.00 / 4)

Ah, even if his premise was right and one vote changed everything--which it did not--he said Hillary would still need to win 65 percent of the remaining delegates.

Would not have happened.


by Bush Bites on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:12:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go ahead, gimme a 1 or a 2 (2.00 / 5)

Jerome must know that the Michigan state delegation had already assigned at least 30 of those uncommitted delegates to Obama, anyway.



McCain
by Black Anus on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:50:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go ahead, gimme a 1 or a 2 (2.00 / 4)

Would give you mojo for this if I could, but have lost my rec privileges for no particular reason. (like so many others who are not Alegre/Jerome toadies)


by amadon on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:07:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What's interesting is the claim that the RCB (2.00 / 12)

did something or the other. All they did was accept Michigan's proposed allocation. It would seem the state of MI and not the Clinton campaign would be the group to make the decision about what is best for MI.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:20:33 PM EST

Re: What's interesting is the claim that the RCB (2.00 / 2)

MI decide what they want? Come on now they dont know what they want they are just poor little Democrats not smart enough to make the "smart" decision . ..


by John a Va Dem on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:39:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's interesting is the claim that the RCB (2.00 / 3)

Oh right. Ickes (who voted to strip them of all of their delegates), Terry, and Penn definitely no better than the MI representatives.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:32:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's interesting is the claim that the RCB (none / 0)

*know better even


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:45:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's interesting is the claim that the RCB (none / 0)

This whole fiasco is such a joke at this point . . im just . . uggh


by John a Va Dem on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:36:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's interesting is the claim that the RCB (none / 0)

I'm right there with you.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:57:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I thought "9/11 changed everthing" (2.00 / 19)


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:25:09 PM EST

Re: I thought "9/11 changed everthing" (2.00 / 7)

I'd tip you all over this site if I could, Al.

But I had tip/rec privileges for about five minutes here.


by JoeW on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:46:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I thought "9/11 changed everthing" (2.00 / 1)

Sweet!


by vadasz on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:59:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

math (2.00 / 3)

And even the delegate math in that diary was wrong because it didn't take account of the add-ons which should have been subtracted from the total supers and which Obama was to get in a very large margin.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:25:42 PM EST

What's an "opining?" (none / 0)


by soyousay on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:34:08 PM EST

It's a verb. (2.00 / 2)

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Opining


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:35:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's an "opining?" (2.00 / 3)

Ha!  Are you trying to parody yourself?  "Opine" is a word meaning, generally, "to state one's opinion."


by XoFalconXo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:36:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

appropriate response (1.50 / 2)

This analysis can only be described as either willfully ignorant or deliberately inflammatory

Just my response to this.
by soyousay on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:48:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "One RCB.. (2.00 / 5)

Of course the front-page diary is absurd, but those looking for a scapegoat now have their boogeyman.  I respect that Jerome would prefer that Hillary be the nominee, but even he has now acknowledged that isn't going to happen.  That being the case, I would expect him to get behind our nominee.


by XoFalconXo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:35:11 PM EST

thanks for a great unity diary! well done. (2.00 / 3)


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:37:09 PM EST

Is this snark? (2.00 / 4)

Serious question.  No, seriously this time; I really can't tell.


by XoFalconXo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:41:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: thanks for a great unity diary! well done. (1.87 / 8)

Unity doesn't mean kissing your ass. It means hoping that you'll face the facts and focus on the real fight.

Sheesh. If these folks are the best Hillary can do, thanks God she's not going to the White House.


by Rationalisto on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:44:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ah - mr. let braid our hair by the campfire. (2.00 / 1)

kissing ass?  is that what this diary does?  or rather fan the flames of anger?

im confused - what part of the word unity do you not understand?  and i am rather quick to call out trolls that bash BO - but i guess that standard isnt applied in reverse.  as i said earlier unity is based on 2 - yes 2 parties joining together.  so if you must continue bashing, please go ahead - im out of this thread.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "One RCB vote (1.87 / 8)

Yes, one RCB vote changed everything.

This is the truth.

It clearly is true.

I know it is true.

It definitely is true.

It is very honest.

Hillary would be the nominee if not for this 1 vote.


by HillsMyGirl on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:41:03 PM EST

You've offered us a mantra, (none / 0)

not a cogent argument supported by any facts.


by Hudson on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:44:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You've offered us a mantra, (2.00 / 1)

HillsMyGirl is a classic parody troll. Don't pay/him her any mind.


Users who are excessively bashing the Democratic Party, or being Republican trolls, will be banned.
by Massadonious on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:47:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You've offered us a mantra, (2.00 / 9)

HillsMyGirl is a parody of Alegre.  Hilarious how difficult it is to tell, though, isn't it?


by XoFalconXo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:47:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "One RCB vote (none / 0)

phantom tip, HMG


by JoeW on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:48:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Get your own house in order... (2.00 / 15)

The Obama campaign and its backers -- and even some major Clinton supporters -- have extended many olive branches to Hillary's base.

And yet everyone from Ickes to Armstrong keep beating these disunifying drums.

Until those drumbeats stop, some of us will keep calling out b.s. argumetns when we hear them.

Calls for "unity" should be more than an excuse to continue to assail the nominee and the process by which he was fairly elected, then cry foul when others point these behaviors and errors out.


by Hudson on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:42:36 PM EST

Re: Get your own house in order... (2.00 / 2)

[That was a response to CanadianGal, above.]


by Hudson on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:43:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

do whatever you want... (none / 0)

just dont be surprised when you dont get the results you desire.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:52:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

shouldn't that be.. (2.00 / 2)

the results that "we" desire?  You are going to work and vote for the Democratic Candidate as well...aren't you?  People may disagree who is better to take on McCain, but you are one of the bat-shit-crazy-my-candidate-or-suicide folks are you?


by ETinKC on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:01:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: shouldn't that be.. (none / 0)

Well, technically she lives in Canada, so, no.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Um..."Canadian Gal"... (2.00 / 1)

I'm pretty sure I've seen her several times point out that she can't vote here.  She's just philosophizing, perhaps.


by aggieric on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:10:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um..."Canadian Gal"... (2.00 / 2)

Guess I assumed somone who was so pationate about how we elect out primary candidates might actually be involve in the race - and that Canada refered to where they were from not where they currently live.

But then again - I could have your screen name so I guess we must be the same person :)


by ETinKC on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

exactly.... (2.00 / 1)

and im not threatening anything.  im simply pointing out to the diarist who is a vocal supporter of the likely nominee that supporters on the other side likely arent going to appreciate this inflammatory type of diary.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: exactly.... (2.00 / 2)

As a dual Canada/US citizen, I suggest you spend some time paying attention to what is happening in your own country.  It makes me laugh to read your comments decrying the "sexism" surrounding Hillary. I lived in Ottawa for decades, and witnessed firsthand the way female politicians are dismissed in Canada.  

Compared to Canada, the Democratic Party and the United States are both shining examples of feminism.

Why don't you get your own house in order?  
LOL
I'll bet you don't even know what I'm talking about, do you!  Spend some time reading something Canadian!


"It's time to pass the baton to the next generation." Ken Jacobson, WA state senator.
by tibbs on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:40:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: exactly.... (2.00 / 1)

Then as a dual citizen you should be uniquely aware of the huge impact the US has on it's neighbour to the North. Our two economies, cultures and politics are so entwined that to separate one from the other would probably be suicidal. This very fact alone should (I would hope) be reason enough to consider the opinions of canadian gal. Of course, as with any and all opinions you are free to consider or ignore it.


by CanuckinMA on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:51:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wha? (2.00 / 1)

Canada's had a woman Prime Minister.  Granted, an unelected particularly crappy one who brought down her whole party, but hey, that's progress.  The PQ leader is a woman.  Women hold and have held influential cabinet posts for quite a while now.

As for "suggesting" Canadian Gal pay attention to Canadian politics, well, there's a reason we're all posting on US blogs at the moment.  Canada hasn't started an unnecessary war recently, its minority conservative government hasn't systematically violated civil liberties, banned abortion or gay marriage and if I hear the phrase "reasonable accommodation" one more time I'm going to vomit.  Canadian politics is too sensible, the contrasts between the parties are too small and the issues of the day are too boring to spend time blogging about.


by corph on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:25:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So Hillary's vote on the War (none / 0)

does matter right?  Just making sure the Canadians here are clear on that :).


by Regenman on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:39:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It sure does. (none / 0)

As did my preferred candidate's (Kerry).

Even though neither vote was decisive, they should both have done their homework better.  It wouldn't kill Hillary to show a little contrition though.  It's as if presidential prospects have a paralyzing effect on one's conscience and turns decent people in to poll-driven robots.

On the flip side, can anyone argue that Al Gore has not been a model citizen and John Kerry has not been a model Senator since they lost?  Come to think of it, Dean and Edwards have been great at building the party too.  I hope every big-name Democrat runs for the presidency and loses.


by corph on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:08:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: do whatever you want... (2.00 / 4)

Gues what?  Hillary's future fortunes are largely dependent on Obama's.

How do you like those apples?


PUMA plants.
by jv on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:23:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

agreed. (none / 0)

and certainly you will agree that the reverse is true too - no?


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:26:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not for Sure (2.00 / 2)

Hillary could call for her supporters to boycott obama or go 3rd party.  The first may not have that big of an impact.  The second might kill Obama's chances but would destroy any future the Clinton's have in politics.


by ETinKC on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:33:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

she will do neither. (none / 0)


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:40:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No. (1.75 / 4)

The era of the Clintonista grip on the Party is over with, just as it was over for the Kennedys after the 1980 Carter v. Kennedy nomination battle.  Obama might still lose this campaign, but the period of Clinton dominance of the party is probably over.  To maintain their power, they need to engender fear in the party insiders, and they don't seem to be able to do that anymore.

They have lost badly, lost more than just the nomination.  Like Hitler in his bunker, they have taken their allies and friends down with them in Wagnerian operatic style.  


by Dumbo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:57:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ah - goodwin's law - end of discussion. (none / 0)


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:03:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, excuse me. (2.00 / 2)

edit the above to:

Like Jim Jones serving out the Kool-Aid in Jonestown, they took everybody down with them in fine Wagnerian operatic style.

Or

Like Richard Nixon in Watergate, they took everybody down with them in fine Wagnerian operatic style.

Or we could all just sing together...


by Dumbo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:39:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You need to chill the fuck out (2.00 / 4)

Canadian Girl is reasonable and polite at all times.  She prefers Hillary but supports whichever Dem gets the nom.  It's people like Canadian Girl who will help convince angry Hillary supporters that it's ok to vote for Obama.  Your gloating and Wagner analogies are laughably overwrought and don't help Obama at all.


by JJE on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:38:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

canadian gal, not girl. n/t. (2.00 / 1)


by JJE on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:39:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I guess you're not an opera fan. (none / 0)

Oh well.


by Dumbo on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:41:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I am not (2.00 / 1)

My girlfriend dragged me to Tosca and Faust at the Met and I would rather have had a lobotomy.

I'm also not a fan of failing to distinguish between Hillary supporters and Hillary "supporters".  Trust me, I'm just as annoyed as you are by trollish diaries and comments from the usual suspects, but CG is not one of them.


by JJE on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:52:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think you are overreacting. (none / 0)

Go back and read the indented posts.


by Dumbo on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:18:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: agreed. (2.00 / 1)

absolutely.  Dem party unity is essential.  

Anybody cutting off their nose to spite their face, deserves McCain.


PUMA plants.
by jv on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:50:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: do whatever you want... (2.00 / 5)

If you hate Obama, don't vote for him! Cry yourself to sleep for the next 8 years. Suck pickled eggs in the dark! Who cares what you do, Blanche? Who cares?

</queeny rant>


by Rationalisto on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:49:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you. (2.00 / 2)

What's that old saying.  "Daddy, I'm free, white, an' over 21 an' I can do whatever I want now!"

Everybody vote for whomever you want.  Shit, I don't care.  Just spare us from this juvenile, "I'm gonna run away from home," bullshit.


by Dumbo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:01:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'd like a source anyway... (none / 0)

...where is this one vote back room result coming from?


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:01:50 PM EST

My guess? (2.00 / 2)

The exact same place as Kos's primary results predictions.


Finding God in a Dog
by maxomai on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:10:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why is Jerome... (none / 0)

pulling things out of kos' "you know where?"

(shudder)


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:47:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Shouting into the wind (2.00 / 9)

While I agree with this diary, I've come to the opinion that Jerome should be ignored until he stops writing crazy ones. As it is, he writes inflammatory and inaccurate stuff and gets hundreds of responses in rebuttal -- just like Texasdarlin, alegre, and linfar, among others. The attention only encourages  behavior which is cleary intended to provoke. Let them draw blanks for a while and they'll probably stop.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:04:41 PM EST

Re: Shouting into the wind (2.00 / 6)

Your heart is in the right place, but ever since the swift-boating of John Kerry, I've decided that idiotic arguments must be rejected loudly and often.


by XoFalconXo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:13:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

These people don't rise to that level. (2.00 / 1)

They're just dead enders cluttering a blog with garbage because it gets them attention and fulfills the need to lash out in bitterness.

But if refuting them is fun, then what the hell. I'm all for fun.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:55:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama's awesomeness changed everything (2.00 / 23)


by libertyleft on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:19:03 PM EST

Re: Obama's awesomeness (2.00 / 18)

What kind of graph is that?  How could you mislead by using inappropriate intervals along your Y axis?  That kind of Obama spin stuff does not belong here at mydd.

Plus you put Obama in red.  Proves he's the republican all along.  As I've said before, we Hillary supporters are the real Democrats and the Obama supporters are republican crossovers and too far to the right.

And one final thought.  I'm so sick of these far left activists who are voting for Obama.


by HillsMyGirl on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:30:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's awesomeness (2.00 / 8)

My y-axis is quite clear and anyone with over a kindergarten education could read it just fine.  No one assumes graphs that visually imply a large difference might not actually mean that aside from 4 year olds and the mentally ill.


by libertyleft on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:35:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's awesomeness (2.00 / 5)

You are too much!


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:35:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I bow to you. (2.00 / 8)

HillsMyGirl. I am not worthy. You outdid yourself this time. Damn you have now perfected it to the teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.


I support our nominee President Barack Obama - and the Admins can't stand me, so I can't rec or rate. This is very mean if you were to ask me.
by TheFullBerry on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:18:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's a seven-layer snark cake. (2.00 / 3)

That's a snark uroboros eating its snarky tail.  


Obama leads the popular vote too
by kellogg on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:01:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "One RCB vote (2.00 / 6)

Why is this on the rec list?

Are the Obama supporters outnumbering the Hillary supporters?

Is this diary snark?


by HillsMyGirl on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:28:39 PM EST

Nah. (2.00 / 4)

One thing I noticed. There weren't that many folks demonstrating at the RBC even though there were supposedly going to be around 10,000 HRC supporters.
http://hillary1000.wordpress.com/2008/05 29/10000-clinton-supporters-to-march-on -washington-saturday

I think that it will take time, but the Democratic party will come together. Most of us know that we have to focus on what we can accomplish if there is a Democrat in the WH.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:34:41 PM EST

Re: Nah. (2.00 / 5)

I went to the meeting, saw about 300 protesters when I poked my head outside. About half of the meeting's guest audience was Obama supporters, and they were much better behaved than the Clinton ones.


by nwodtuhs on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:47:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nah. (none / 0)

"the other 9,800 got lost at on the New Jersey Turnpike and are currently picket a Roy Rogers."

-funniest remark ever by someone who I don't remember.

I added the part about the Roy Rogers.


We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.
by Jess81 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:27:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary's staff knows what's up (2.00 / 4)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/02/us/pol itics/02clinton.html?_r=1&oref=slogi n

Publicly, Mrs. Clinton and her staff have been denying that their fight for the nomination was ending, even if the primaries were. Supporters keep calling her President Clinton, or Presidenta Clinton in Puerto Rico.

Privately, however, staff members were discussing plans for after Tuesday, engaging in gallows humor (with one dubbing Puerto Rico the campaign's Fantasy Island) and acknowledging the obvious.

Little clues have abounded that Mrs. Clinton and her staff knew they had embarked on a final journey. As the campaign plane headed to Puerto Rico on Friday, the press secretary, Jamie Smith, stood before reporters and introduced Caroline Adler, a junior press aide who had been confined to the campaign's Arlington, Va., headquarters for months.

Clearly Ms. Adler was being sent to Puerto Rico for the weekend as a final plum, recognition that the young staffer had done a good job. It would cost a few thousand dollars, but what the heck.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:59:56 PM EST

Re: Hillary's staff knows what's up (2.00 / 5)

I think there are many who don't appreciate this side of it.  The primary is not the general.  If Clinton loses all of her campaign staff will have to find new jobs, and if they're interested in presidential politics there will be only one game in town.  Many of the people now associated with Bill Clinton actually worked for his primary rivals in '92.

So if you're a staffer (and not even a young one) what are you going to do?  Support Hillary's bid to take her race to Denver and miss out as the Obama campaign reconfigures itself for the general?  Maybe, but only if you think she has a real chance of winning.  Because if you don't, and you think such a race would be a symbolic effort, you're basically throwing away your best chance to get a position of responsibility in the next administration.

Not saying Obama has a lock on the general, but if McCain wins you're back to square one anyway.  But if you back Clinton's symbolic run, you're basically in a similar place.

Clinton, can we agree, cares about her staff, and that must be figuring into her calculations right now.  While the Clinton dead enders will want her to take things as far as she can go, the people who have the greatest professional stake in this election almost certainly want her to wrap things up soon.
   


by IncognitoErgoSum on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:22:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "One RCB vote changed everything"? (2.00 / 14)

BTW, I'm convinced that if HRC had voted against the war and had spoken against it, she wouldn't have even had a serious competitor for the nomination.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:01:20 PM EST

I think it was even easier for her than that. (2.00 / 12)

If she had just apologized for the war or come to oppose it in 2007 belatedly, people might have forgiven her, as they did Edwards, who also voted for the war.

As mad as I was about the AUMF vote (and I was VERY mad, for years), I thought that eventually, as we got close to 2008, she would wise up to how much anger and motivation there was out there about the war and they would try harder to distance themselves from that.  

They apparently didn't think they need to.

For all the caterwauling we heard about Reverend Wright and how Obama needed to throw him under the bus, what Hillary needed to do was throw the war under the bus, and she would not do it.  Her few anti-war comments were always carefully couched and hedged and immediately followed by some cynical tacking back to the right.  Perhaps they thought they needed to do that to be ready for the general, but if so, if that was their calculation, then it lost them the nomination.


by Dumbo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:18:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

more to it than that, I fear (2.00 / 1)

If she had just apologized for the war or come to oppose it in 2007 belatedly, people might have forgiven her, as they did Edwards, who also voted for the war.

I totally agree with you there. Most people would have forgiven her, and by being willing to take such a step she would also have been able to capitalize on the ill-feeling towards the Bush Whitehouse much more effectively.

But by continuously triangulating --if not on the war, then by trying always to be "more hawkish than thou" with the Republicans-- she undercut what should have been her greatest advantage as the Democratic front-runner and presumptive nominee.

And yet, I think there is something deeper going on here, and it is not just the fact that she was stuck in 1990s-era triangulation mentality.

Because being "more hawkish than thou" was never just a strategy for winning the Whitehouse. To hint that we might use nuclear weapons to preemptively annihilate Iran bespeaks something way beyond mere "triangulation" (which I take to entail temporarily occupying the opponent's position, for tactical reasons, in order to secure ultimate victory).

To talk in such a way pushes the envelope of acceptable public discourse in a direction it ought not be pushed.

And at least to my ears --and I know a lot of other people felt similarly about this-- it bespeaks an underlying stance towards human life and its expendability that I find absolutely horrifying.

True, by the time she had made that statement her campaign was probably already doomed.  But it confirmed for me and many others something I had come to fear about Hillary Clinton (even as I hoped it was not true).

So although I agree with you that if she had only apologized for the AUFM vote and moved on, she would have been swiftly forgiven.

Where I disagree is with the notion that this was merely a tactical mistake --or that anything which allows for loose talk about preemptively launching a nuclear holocaust can ever be regarded as merely a tactic.


by Nate Roberts on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:24:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "One RCB vote changed everything"? (2.00 / 2)

Oh you're right on there.

I can't think of a better reason for someone to lose an election.


We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.
by Jess81 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:28:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nah. (2.00 / 2)

Yeah, I think its quite the stretch to say that this one vote changed everything. It was an interesting side show in the end game and yes Obama's week would have been more nervewracking perhaps, but changed everything no.


by wasder on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:19:45 PM EST

#13 is the clincher (2.00 / 8)

#13: Hillary trashing "activists" (not sure if that includes people who advocate gate-crashing or not).

It absolutely includes gate-crashers.

#13 is the whole ballgame.


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:25:01 PM EST

Re: "everything"? Nah. (2.00 / 1)

For many it was always about Iraq.
Clinton was never in a position to combat the GOP on Iraq. Obama can do this....and is quite well at this time.
We are tired of bellicose Presidents....

...and not to be lost..
perhaps the most transformational of this campaign..
Fund raising..
so many $$ from so many people.


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:20:16 AM EST

Better post mortem (2.00 / 1)

You've got points 3 twice. The first point 3 is incorrect by the way, She visited the state about as often as the other two major contenders there, spend as much and started her campaign there as early as the rest. She improved her numbers there. Her place there was caused by Edwards having his 2004 machine still in place and Obama being from a neigboring state not due to neglect.

the second point 3, point 5, 6, 7 and to a degree point 11 are all the same point rephrashed several times. "divisive code words" is out. Casting the Clintons as rascist is something that should not have a place here.

8, 9 and 10 are overlapping too they're all the same actions but ascribed all possible motives to all actions.

12 is silly. We're looking for the reasons why Obama got more votes. Clinton's also got millions and millions of votes of votes after all.

A better post mortem list would be:

1) Clinton voting to for the Iraq resolution.

  1. Clinton waged a campaign with out of to